@mudge @CloudyMrs There are cyclists that make me want to shout at them "you are the reason why drivers hate us!".
Where I live now, cyclists who completely disregard all rules of the road are disturbingly common. But so are jaywalkers who think it's absolutely fine to endanger both themselves and cyclists.
Bad actors, sadly, exist among all groups of road users...
@dmbaturin @mudge as far as I am aware, the concept of Jay walking only exist in America. Where I am, folk just see a person wanting to cross the road, and generally, someone will stop to let them cross. I've never heard of anyone being arrested for walking. It seems odd to me.
@CloudyMrs @mudge Those people I'm talking about don't wait for anyone to let them cross — they start crossing and assume that everyone will see them.
I want to say they assume everyone can brake safely at any distance, but in reality I suppose they just don't care. People should be arrested for that. Bonus points if they do it like 10 meters away from a crossing with a traffic light.
My "favorite" offense from fellow cyclists is riding on bike lanes against the traffic. Come on, bike lanes have arrows painted on them here even if someone forgot whether people drive on the left here or not. ;)
None of those is a reason to hate any group as a whole, but I do believe that bad actors in every group should be fined equally for disregarding other people's safety.
@dmbaturin @mudge your argument about pedestrians makes my head hurt. If you're driving, it's surely YOUR responsibility not to kill more vulnerable road users. Why would pedestrians be hurling themselves in front of cars? Why would you not be able to stop to let them cross if they did? And, cycling the wrong way up cycle lanes? Eh? Is everyone in your town on drugs? Sounds terrifying.
@CloudyMrs @mudge
>Why would pedestrians be hurling themselves in front of cars?
I honestly don't know.
>Why would you not be able to stop to let them cross if they did?
I usually can — the braking distance of a bike is certainly a lot shorter than that of a car... but the braking distance of the car or, worse, a bus or a truck that is behind me can be much longer.
In any case, I shouldn't have to — traffic lights and pedestrian crossings were invented for a reason. I never jaywalk when I'm a pedestrian: there are crossings with absurdly long wait times, but the rules of the road are there to follow them.
>Is everyone in your town on drugs? Sounds terrifying.
People I know are on drugs are often much more sensible. ;)
Thankfully, people going the wrong way on bike lanes aren't _too_ common, but I see at least one almost every day.
@dmbaturin @mudge "there are crossings with absurdly long wait times, but the rules of the road are there to follow them."
Don't you hear how mad that sounds?
Honestly, your perspective is very skewed.
Accepting that cars must take priority, isn't inevitable. It isn't even usual. Pedestrians shouldn't have to wait ages to cross a flippin road, and traffic shouldn't be going so fast that no one expects it to be able to stop. "Kill your speed, not a child", seems a decent rule to follow.
@CloudyMrs I think reconfiguring the traffic lights to limit the pedestrian wait time to, say, no more than five minutes would solve the problem nicely.
Let's leave private cars aside (I'm all for greatly limiting car ownership, but that's another story)
Should buses be limited to 20km/h or similar speed? To me that would ruin any appeal of public transport.
@dmbaturin Wait,what? Folk currently have to wait longer than 5 minutes to cross a road? That's mad. No wonder folk aren't waiting. 5 minutes is still an awful long wait.
I don't think it's the speed limits that are the limiting factor here. It's the attitude of entitlement from drivers to expect absolute right of way.They should be aware of their surroundings and drive accordingly.
Still shocked that a 5 minute wait to cross is improvement.
@CloudyMrs Oh, people are jaywalking even in places with very short wait times, oddly. That I just don't understand.
In those places with 5+ min wait times, I kinda understand why people would do that (although I still will never do it myself), but I still think they shouldn't.
@dmbaturin why do you think "Jay Walking" is only a crime in America? Do you have a theory?
It's an offence is lots of countries. Scotland is a rare exception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking#Legal_view_by_jurisdiction
@dmbaturin I think you need to read that wiki post a little more closely. It doesn't say what you think it does.
Your claim is that "jaywalking is only a crime in America". I assume we are not arguing about the definition of "crime": in many states of the USA it's a petty offence rather than a misdemeanor (much less a felony) as well.
If you allow me, let's stick with "laws that prohibit jaywalking only exist in America".
Now let's check the article: it's full of examples of countries where it's prohibited by laws.
>In Zimbabwe, jaywalking is illegal ... Disregarding designated crossing points or passing through red traffic lights carry a punishment of up to six months in jail or a US$20 fine
>In recent years, jaywalking has become more strictly controlled in China as car traffic increased. Police have tested facial recognition to identify jaywalkers
>In Hong Kong, it is an offence to cross roads within the zigzag area around zebra crossings, or within 15 m of other crossing points
>In Kazakhstan, jaywalking is illegal and punishable by a fine.
>France: Pedestrians are required to use sidewalks (if any), and zebra crossings for crossing a street if one is within 50 m
>Ireland maintains a jaywalking law, which requires a pedestrian to use a pedestrian crossing if they are within 15 metres (49 ft) of one.
Could you clarify where we have a misunderstanding?
@dmbaturin You made my point for me. Note all the countries referenced on Wiki, that you decided to skip over. Anyway, stay safe and have a nice day.
The original claim was that jaywalking is only an offence in America. I'm sure if I prove that statistically more countries have road crossing laws than not, you will tell me that it's not illegal on most planets of the galaxy. ;)
But I want to make a different point towards the spirit of this discussion rather than its letter.
Here's a thing from my personal experience living in Türkie: the police doesn't fine pedestrians crossing roads in random places, but they also don't fine people who ride **motorbikes** on pedestrian crossings and sidewalks.
I'm not kidding you: it's common to see people (often food delivery couriers) turn to a pedestrian crossing on a motorbike to save time — often to take a shortcut, but sometimes even just to avoid waiting for the road traffic light to turn green.
Reportedly, the situation in Thailand and many other places is similar — their loose regulation or enforcement make them _more_ of a pedestrian nightmare, not less.
@dmbaturin in the spirit of all Christmas day discussion.
Yes you are entirely coreect in everything you say. America, Zimbabwe, Kazakhstan and Iran have the right idea. Well done you. 
@CloudyMrs
If Zimbabwe, Kazakhstan, the USA, Germany, Poland, France, Ukraine, Ireland, Spain, Czechia, Slovakia, Australia, New Zealand, and a whole bunch of other countries have laws that don't allow pedestrians to always cross wherever they want, maybe they are onto something after all.
