We published a statement on our stance on neutrality of free software (and why we won't stay neutral in this case): f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/stat

@fdroidorg

You seem to believe that Gab is wholly composed of harassers. This is simply false.

The majority of Gab users are nothing like that. AND harassers exist on every platform.

Singling out Gab like this is silly.

The reason Gab has been seized upon is because it's popular with Trump supporters, and a lot of Trump opponents are desperate to do anything they can to prevent Trump 2020.

@jhol

> The majority of Gab users are nothing like that.

And these Gab users don't seem to perform much action against the harassers that exist on that platform - contrary to many other places on the Internet, whose communities actually do something about the hate speech problem.

@fdroidorg

@phoe @fdroidorg

There's no such thing as "hate speech". There's only free speech. You may not like some of it. If you don't like it, don't listen.

@jhol @fdroidorg See, F-Droid doesn't like it. That's exactly why F-droid doesn't listen to it anymore.

@phoe @fdroidorg

Right... and I'm saying they're doing something idiotic.

"Hate speech" cannot be consistently defined. It is not a politically neutral term. If f-droid start trying to moderate political ideas on their platform, there's simply no way they can do so consistently.

Follow

@jhol Sure it can. "Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or a group on the basis of protected attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity" - that's via Wikipedia.
@fdroidorg

@phoe @fdroidorg

I know what the term means. I don't accept it (nor does the US legal system, but I digress)

@jhol
Hate speech is not a legal category in the US, nor is there a hate speech exception to the First Amendment in the US, but that's not the same thing as "hate speech doesn't exist." Don't give government the power to define common language terms.
@phoe @fdroidorg

@rchive @phoe @fdroidorg

Free speech supporters don't accept hate speech as a separate category separate from simple speech.

@jhol @rchive @fdroidorg

That's the issue that I see with free speech. To clarify, "free speech" as an ideology is different than "free speech" as a right.

Words are able to harm and kill people by directly amplifying hate in people, who then commit actual hate crimes. There are examples of exactly that happening. [>>]

@jhol @rchive @fdroidorg

"Free speech" as a law takes that into account, where "free speech" as an ideology completely ignores that relationship in favor of "I can say whatever I want and it will have no consequences".

The consequences are there in the open to see - and, for some reason, they are not seen by the proponents of absolute free speech as an ideology.

@ice @phoe @fdroidorg @jhol Spot on man ! God, have I ever enjoyed watching SJWs get to salty over nothing ? OH yeah ! In the glorious , incredible, amazing night of November 8th 2016 !

@phoe @jhol @fdroidorg let's see if that definition holds.

I have seen instance administrators vowing to let their users insult other users on the basis of their race and sex, as long as those insults are directed towards white men.

Is that hate speech?

@elsacodelcoco @phoe @fdroidorg

Someone did it to me in this very thread!

- I can't tell though, because he blocked me.

F-droid had better delete Firefox from their repository, otherwise someone might be able access this vile hate speech..

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Firefox doesn't brand itself with the logo of a company that abuses free speech to promote and benefit off hate speech. This is exactly what Gab does and - at least for me - which is the elephant in the room that hardly anyone talks about. Free speech, free speech, but why is Gab so proud of performing and/or tolerating gestures that actively harm other people?

@jhol

As for that reaction that you got, yes, I think it was overblown, unless the person in question is in some severe emotional distress that they can no longer safely hold it inside them.

In general, it's okay for me to disagree via civil discussion, but simply throwing "fuck you" around - sure, it helps one person with letting some emotions out, but is also plainly harmful to both sides of the discussion in the long run.

@elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

@phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Yes... and I'm not calling for that individual to be banned. I'm not calling for their platform to be banned. And I'm not calling for the app that accesses their platform to be banned.

That would be idiotic. f-droid are being idiotic.

@jhol @elsacodelcoco Yep - you're not doing that.

That's where I, personally, have noticed some time ago that some other people can't "not call for an individual/platform/app" as easily as other people, like you. The thing that you've called "just don't look at it" isn't as obvious for some other people or groups of people as they are for you. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco Why? That's a pretty broad question - usually due of hardships in their life that require most of their attention. The attention that they would normally spend on clicking "ignore" is already gone, as they've been fighting off other things - health issues, law issues, educational issues, social issues in general... the list goes on and on. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco So, for me, the first trick was to notice that it's generally invalid to extrapolate from me to other people when it comes from details even to simplest things, like them being able to see. So if I'm able/unable to do something, it's not obvious that the other party can do that in the same manner and at the same relative cost that I would/wouldn't. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco And once I've got that figured out, I was able to use my own curiosity and empathy to actually start figuring things out - if they showed me the finger, why's that? Did they just want to ruin my life? Were they too annoyed to do otherwise? Were they scared of talking with me for some reason and turned it into aggression? The list of questions goes on. [>>]

@jhol And also that's when I started kind-of using my eyes to try and read between, around, and behind the lines to figure out what a single act can mean when it is put in the whole context, not completely removed from it. That's exactly why I asked @elsacodelcoco to provide the full context for the post - I want to figure out exactly what happened there, what the discussion was about, and possibly what the person in question wanted to post about themselves on the Internet. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco It's easy to pull things out of context and focus on the emotional side of such purposefully crippled information - and that's exactly what shitty fake news services do to gain views and money.

And also a decent definition of manipulation, at least for me.

@phoe @elsacodelcoco You're showing a great deal of charity to this person.

Could this charity not also apply to Gab users?

I'm a big fan of Dave Cullen @DaveCullen - he's a very middle of the road conservative. What's wrong with that?

People keep saying Gab = Nazis and Gab = Fascists, but that's just not true beyond stereotypes.

There may be "literal fascists" there. I never saw any. I'm not looking for them.

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Gab, as a company, focuses on monetizing hate speech that it propagates via free speech. That's what I called the abuse of free speech previously in the discussion. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Since Gab is a corporate instance and access is offered for free, then I am the product, even if I'm just a number in their user count; it means that if I join Gab, I help Gab in its goals, also in the one that I stated above. I do not want to do this, and I consider other people who stay there complicit or supportive of that behaviour. If they were not okay with what Gab does, they would not stay there.

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen As for "literal fascists", I have seen the Gab timeline at various points of time. I saw hoaxes like the ones that way 5G is a mortal danger, vaccines are a mortal danger, women, Muslims, Jews and people of color are despicable (and a mortal danger, too), and polls/quizzes/discussions about how many missiles it takes to eliminate a given minority, and many other interesting "100% verified truths and facts".

These were enough to convince me.

@phoe @jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Welcome to the Internet.

I'm sure you too believe things that would horrify billions of reasonable people outside of your bubble.

@doomcultgames @jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Sure that I do. I don't think that implies that other people have to agree with it or want to view it.

@phoe @jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

But you have just as much right to express your opinions as the aforementioned Nazis.

@doomcultgames @jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen Yes, you are correct. I have the right to express my opinion, just like Gab. Other people can choose to block and not see my opinions, just like Gab's.

@phoe
Dont forget about that "lovely" mass shooting manifesto made after years of racism.
@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen@gab.com

@aladar @phoe @elsacodelcoco

So what? That ZERO to do with all but a handful for Gab users.

ISIS were on twitter for years. Should twitter be banned?

Even on Mastadon itself, there are instances hosting all kinds of abusive content including CP - mostly that stuff gets banned, thank God.

But antifa don't, and there are lots of those guys here. Antifa thugs beat a journalist unconcious and gave him a brain hemorrhage.

By your logic all Mastadon apps should be banned.

It's silly

@jhol
Yeah mate keep believing that only "handful of users" are posting racist and nazi content that degrades whole races of people, we all believe you dude.
Now tell me the one about 8chan being a bastion of friendship and comradery.
@phoe @elsacodelcoco

@aladar @phoe @elsacodelcoco I was talking about that manifesto. Not many people had anything to do with that guy.

I'm not a fan of 8chan, and obviously I have no interest in racist content. My family is mixed race. So I don't have any interest in seeking that material out.

But there's a fair amount of content on Gab that I follow and enjoy.

Moreover, if you don't like it, then block it. It's not hard.

Talking about app-store bans and defederations is a complete overreaction.

@phoe @DaveCullen @elsacodelcoco @jhol

It is sad to exclude piece of software on political reasons. I don't agree with facebook or youtube, would it be a reason to pressure f-droid to drop tinfoil (if it still exists) or any other youtube app like newpipe?

What I don't like about the whole issue is that people demand that their safe space is handled to them by a central authority. Then you give power to the whole concept of the central figure that protects you. What if that central figure changes its views? What if we are the oppressors in the eyes of the new authority?

If you need a safe space please take the time to create it. Tools shall offer this power on an individual level. Ask for this. Banning a piece of software on political reasons is dangerous thing to have happened and will influence future conflicts in way that many people may be disappointed in the future.

In this issue I totally agree with the stance of fedilab. It says there is an issue, let's give you the power to choose. What is hate speech or harassment is a social construct. If we allow decisions to be made on that ground maybe our voices will be harassment in the future. And the people crying now for protection may be the ones that will be faced with exclusion.

@phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg
F-droid really shouldn't get involved in this. There are bad actors everywhere.

If F-droid starts trying police these things through making political distinctions between apps, there's no way they can enforce it consistently with political neutrality.

If the big silicon valley tech giants can't do it, there's no way f-droid can.

@jhol @phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

It's inevitable. F-droid is centralized and therefore obsolete.

@doomcultgames @jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg Why obsolete? It is a trusted resource, and trust is most often centralized.

(Unless you use a Web of Trust approach that has been attempted a few time in the past, and it was successful in a few communities - e.g. the Linux kernel community.)

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg Do you have a link for that post? I'll want to take a look at the original material - my opinion will be worth little or nothing otherwise if I can't see the source.

@phoe @jhol @fdroidorg sure. Here's the question someone asked: "if a black woman insults me on Mastodon only for supposedly belonging to the hypothetical oppressive group of white men, will that be pursued?" mobile.twitter.com/frnjrrz/sta

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg I see these posts, yes.

I'd need to take a look at the *original* posts - the post(s) where the action is said to have taken place.

The words like "insults", "supposedly", "hypothetical" already tells me that this post is very subjective when it comes to evaluating and qualifying the situation that happened. Furthermore, the tone of the reporting post is highly emotional, which means that my own interpretation of it will be highly skewed. [>>]

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg To elaborate, based on this source, it's easy for me to throw a verdict that "this makes 100% sense" or "this is 100% nonsense" and both of them will be equally valid, since I'd need to fill in the missing context with my own assumptions, and these are almost sure to be wrong. Therefore the principle of Pseudo-Scotus[1] applies, and everything can be proved off a set of false assumptions. [>>]

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principl

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg And the context that I consider to be missing is, among others: What is the original poster like? What exactly have they posted? What have they been posting previously? What is the black woman like? How did she interpret his post? What exactly has she posted? What exactly in the man's post made them react like that? How was her reaction interpreted by the man? Etc.. [>>]

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg

When you have severely incomplete information, verifying situations is both almost always trivial and almost always producing wrong results. And you literally can't get some of that information without some empathetic insight, and perhaps a little bit of practice in reading people. (And even then, some blanks usually remain.)

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg

That is one of the most frustrating things I have ever encountered, personally. Literally: if only the world was simpler to read, understand, work with, and figure out.

But instead it isn't, and it very much is holy fucking *not*. Even a virtually simple interpersonal situation usually has many subtleties that need to be taken into account to produce a decent model of it. [>>]

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg

I sometimes wish reality was as simple as "shout at someone → pay $200 fine", but it never is. That's also why law has so many lawyers and judges, and why the whole law system is such a pile of complex junk.

Ultimately, mathematical logic is a very good tool to me, but only when used locally, on a problem that is graspable by that logic. As much as my brain would love to use it to describe everything, it doesn't have the capacity to.

@phoe @jhol @fdroidorg well, it was a hypothetical question and a hypothetical answer anyway. But it was, after all, an administrator vowing to allow insults based on race and sex.

If you need an actual case, here's this answer I got in the same conversation: "shut up, asshole. go cry more that your white male life didn't turn out as well as your daddy told you it would."

Is that hate speech? mobile.twitter.com/baronnarcve

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg I think the issue in question comes mainly from the issue at pbs.twimg.com/media/D6sokxZWwA

I see it, and I'll post back at you tomorrow* about my understanding of that thing. The conversation I've had with all the other people today was exhausting, and I don't think I can give you good and consistent responses with my current headache.

*I think I'll remember to do that

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg

Thanks. I'm up for describing that with some detail - I just need some more time and energy for that. Discussions and debates like these take considerable effort, since such a discussion means literally elaborating on how I see and view things, along with responding to questions along the way, and the questions can be arbitrarily complex and inquisitive.

@phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg Thanks for playing. I'm quite new to the #fediverse, and I'm finding many more folks here are willing to have a proper conversation than on Twitter for example.

It's nice

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

No problem. Again, you'll find some people who are interested in conversing, and then people who won't want to do that for many reasons - some of them being directly and personally affected by the issue in question. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

As for the first sentence, I don't consider that to be "playing". For some people in some places, that issue *does* mean life or death for them and/or their close ones. That's one of the worst symptoms of the issue and why I've decided to spend some of my own time on working on it.

I'm a white male, I haven't encountered much racism or sexism in my own life, and I therefore have something that is sometimes called "privilege". [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

I've spent a while to actually figure out what "privilege" means, and I've realized that it's not an insult of any kind, nor even an expression of envy and jealousy. I simply got some relatively better dice rolls during character creation when I appeared here, and I have some supplies that allow me to make others' lives better without impacting my own. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Since I do not have to spend my energy on defending me and my close ones from racism, sexism, xenophobia and/or other calamities, I have some extra energy compared to the ones who actually get hit by those. And I've decided to actually spend that energy on understanding why, how and when the above calamities happen and how my own behaviour can influence them. That's a decision I've made via using my empathy. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

The logical mind is important there, too - it actually figures out what and how to act in order to have the most effect. And I've figured out that the thing that helps the most in direct contact is calm discussion - and that is possible *because* I have the spoons[1] to commit to such calm discussion.

Not everyone has them, and that's normal and expected due to how varied the world is.

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_th

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Anyway - thanks for the discussion, too. I hope it's been insightful for you.

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